Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

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Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby Adam » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:47 am

Nihoa wrote:id expect this from a (content moderated) like ben but todd should have known better than film and glorify it. i hope that squirrel gives you both (content moderated)


who exactly are we worried that we're going to offend here? is there a list of words somewhere that we can see that we're not allowed to say? it seems pretty arbitrary thus far.

i agree, some stuff is just outright offensive... but that usually comes down to tone/intent/content, not vocabulary.
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Re: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby Fred » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:12 am

Depends how we're feeling that day. We usually flip a coin and just pick random words out of the dictionary.
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Re: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby Adam » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:30 am

that's sorta how it seems...

i agree there's a line to be crossed... and it's probably drawn in the sand. but if we're all at the beach anyway, then let's just drink beer, get a tan, and go swimming. :shock:
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Re: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby chossmonkey » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:55 pm

trad_reborn wrote:
Nihoa wrote:id expect this from a (content moderated) like ben but todd should have known better than film and glorify it. i hope that squirrel gives you both (content moderated)


who exactly are we worried that we're going to offend here? is there a list of words somewhere that we can see that we're not allowed to say? it seems pretty arbitrary thus far.

i agree, some stuff is just outright offensive... but that usually comes down to tone/intent/content, not vocabulary.
It was seen as a bit of a 5th grade personal attack.

We try and keep things at least grade 7 around here. :wink:


There is a list of words you are not allowed to use, but it can't be posted. The filter would just change them to something else.

It wasn't so much the words that were used as the way they were used. I was probably the first to question the post, but I didn't edit it. If Nihoa would like to retype his post a bit more constructively and PM it to me I would be happy to paste it in over the original.
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Re: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby Nihoa » Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:38 pm

chossmonkey wrote:
It was seen as a bit of a 5th grade personal attack.

We try and keep things at least grade 7 around here. :wink:

There is a list of words you are not allowed to use, but it can't be posted. The filter would just change them to something else.

It wasn't so much the words that were used as the way they were used. I was probably the first to question the post, but I didn't edit it.


its good we have your long distance moderating and opinions, this board would likely fall to disarray without them. harsh material was posted and it was met with harsh language, i felt strongly about what i was saying and used strong words. as wonderful as the forum is it is still only that, a bunch of peeps whose langauge dips far far worse when we shoot the flowers around the gym or out on the rock. but you wouldnt know that would you?

the language i choose when at work isnt the same as what i would use here. there is a time and place for formality and its retarded to expect it here among a small group of people familiar with one another. anything i say here i would say face to face making it ridiculous to censor it or put your labels on it. its certainly high on my list of pet peeves people who run around claiming the higher ground (oh so much more mature) because they use big words instead of cussing. i speak on here as i speak in the gym, anything less is lying to yourself and putting on aires.

not sure why i wasted the time replying to this. enough people here have told you to take a hike and im not sure how youve missed the point.

chossmonkey wrote:If Nihoa would like to retype his post a bit more constructively and PM it to me I would be happy to paste it in over the original.


i wouldnt hold your breath
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Re: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby chossmonkey » Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:23 am

Nihoa wrote:
its good we have your long distance moderating and opinions, this board would likely fall to disarray without them. harsh material was posted and it was met with harsh language, i felt strongly about what i was saying and used strong words. as wonderful as the forum is it is still only that, a bunch of peeps whose langauge dips far far worse when we shoot the flowers around the gym or out on the rock. but you wouldnt know that would you?

the language i choose when at work isnt the same as what i would use here. there is a time and place for formality and its retarded to expect it here among a small group of people familiar with one another. anything i say here i would say face to face making it ridiculous to censor it or put your labels on it. its certainly high on my list of pet peeves people who run around claiming the higher ground (oh so much more mature) because they use big words instead of cussing. i speak on here as i speak in the gym, anything less is lying to yourself and putting on aires.

not sure why i wasted the time replying to this. enough people here have told you to take a hike and im not sure how youve missed the point.



You are entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make it right.

The rules of the board aren't mine. I only help enforce them. Like I said, I didn't edit it. I only asked the other Mods what they thought. Regardless, personal attacks aren't allowed.

The language I use here isn't anything like I use in real life either. But it is the opinion of the owner, who pays all the bills and provides this website to you for free that certain language isn't allowed in an effort to keep conversations somewhat constructive rather than a 5th grade see how many cuss words you can string together, name calling flamefest.



Nihoa wrote:
chossmonkey wrote:If Nihoa would like to retype his post a bit more constructively and PM it to me I would be happy to paste it in over the original.


i wouldnt hold your breath
Please excuse me for trying to be nice. It wasn't for my benefit.

It won't happen again.
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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby martha » Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:28 am

Mark,

I understand your frustration. I also think that the modding on this forum is a bit tight, but I've been on other climbing forums that get totally out of hand and constructive points are missed due to all the harsh language and personal attacks flying.

In Choss's defense, we discuss all the posts of question behind the scenes in the mod's forum and it was agreed to do something. Not because we did or did not agree with your stance, but simply the means by which it was discribed. We try to mod in an unbiased fashion and in circumstances were bias could be perceived, we use a mod who has nothing to do with the people/subject in question, Hense why Choss is often the mod for discussions involving us.

If you'd like more of a say to what happens around here, then feel free to take some of your time to help mod the site and keep it free from Spam and bad users. Choss puts a ton of time in here, definitely more than me these days and Fred and I greatly appreciate his and Granite grrls help. They are good people, who have climbed here and who know many of the climbers here and in NS where Granite Grrl is from... On the other side of the Fence is the fact that Fred pays for this site as a service for the community and can run it however he wishes. he puts in a lot of time maintaining it for everyone. (Time that could be used changing diapers! or climbing!)

You are right, not much is said here that wouldn't be said in face to face discussion.. and lord knows I've been modded lots for my choice of vocabulary. However, There are reasons for what we do. One, is that the greater community is known to have lurked on here, CFB Gagetown for one and people from UNB. The last thing we want is any bad PR happening due to our behavior here... as some people can't distinguish casual conversations (like on here or in person) and business/community relations where our language would be different.

Anyways, I feel your pain, but it is what it is, and if you really don't like it, it is your choice to come here or not.

Cheers.
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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby Adam » Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:27 pm

martha wrote:we use a mod who has nothing to do with the people/subject in question,


i understand what you're getting at, but that doesn't mean bias is not being applied. they're still being directed to do the modding at someone (or plural) else's request.
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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby martha » Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:30 pm

trad_reborn wrote:
martha wrote:we use a mod who has nothing to do with the people/subject in question,


i understand what you're getting at, but that doesn't mean bias is not being applied. they're still being directed to do the modding at someone (or plural) else's request.



No, not quite. We come to a consensus... there is no dictatorship.
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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby Fred » Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:13 pm

why not something like this instead....

"Sorry guys my bad. I realize I got carried away by emotion and clearly I could have made the same point without being offensive. The truth is, we all appreciate the hard work the moderators put in on this website and we are happy to have access to this great resource."
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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby Adam » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:44 am

martha wrote:
trad_reborn wrote:No, not quite. We come to a consensus... there is no dictatorship.


i guess i just mean there is potential for it. a consensus driven by a motivated party for example.

yes, you guys do good and thankless work, so i thank you all for your effforts. perhaps the message to take from this is that maybe content doesn't need to be moderated quite so much.
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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby Fred » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:20 am

We have been running the site with this level of moderation from day one... 8 years now. We will be sticking with the tight moderating policy since it is directly related to constructive and respectfull conversation.

When in doubt if you've crossed the line... ask yourself the following question.

Would I send the same post to my grand mother, father, mother, daughter, co-worker, wife, and/or girlfriend this way? If the answer is no. Then edit your message before posting.

If you follow this guideline then there is no room for moderating bias and you will have gotten the same point accross.
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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby Adam » Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:55 am

Fred wrote:Would I send the same post to my grand mother, father, mother, daughter, co-worker, wife, and/or girlfriend this way? If the answer is no. Then edit your message before posting.


you obviously haven't met Mark's family haha :lol:
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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby martha » Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:22 am

Fred wrote:
Would I send the same post to my grand mother, father, mother, daughter, co-worker, wife, and/or girlfriend this way? If the answer is no. Then edit your message before posting.

If you follow this guideline then there is no room for moderating bias and you will have gotten the same point accross.


hmmm...... Hey Fred... how about your follow your own guidelines?! 8)
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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby Fred » Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:30 am

The and/or means you pick the one from the list which result in the most respectfull outcome for your situation. Which is why I put co-worker in there. Maybe I should have added priest, prime minister, teacher...

anyhow. You get the point. It's not difficult to stick to these guidelines and still get your message accross.

sorry for being tight. :?
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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby granite_grrl » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:06 am

martha wrote:Choss puts a ton of time in here, definitely more than me these days and Fred and I greatly appreciate his and Granite grrls help. They are good people, who have climbed here and who know many of the climbers here and in NS where Granite Grrl is from...


Cara, thanks for the praise, but I do almost nothing compared to Nathan. And I think he probobly does more than even us mods are aware of!

In response to an out of towner modding....people from NB post in the NS forum and vise versa all the time, why aren't they given the same jerkish respose that Nathan gets? He does have ties back to Nova Scotia and has had time climbing there, even got to go ice climbing with Fred in Welsford too!

After moving from Nova Scotia I have made many visits and have seen how the climbing community has morphed over the years. Many of the people in Halifax and Fredricton are students, who start climbing, get into the community and then leave. This even happened to me, though I make an effort to keep my ties back in the East Coast and keep climbing as my passion beyond my university years. It seems there are more people than not who just drop of the face of the climbing community map once they finish their schooling.

I don't know the NB community particularly well, but I do wonder how many of the people complaining are living in glass houses?
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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby Nihoa » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:06 pm

martha wrote:Choss puts a ton of time in here, definitely more than me these days and Fred and I greatly appreciate his and Granite grrls help. They are good people, who have climbed here and who know many of the climbers here and in NS where Granite Grrl is from...


i can only take your word for it. from my point of view i have someone i dont know interacting with me and having no experience with this person i interpret his tone as condescending. hence my rant above. a good deal of online communication is likely mis-interpreted but when you say something here i know where you are coming from and how to take it. his comments, i do not and my impression (right or wrong) is snarkiness.

martha wrote:Anyways, I feel your pain, but it is what it is, and if you really don't like it, it is your choice to come here or not.


true dat
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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby Nihoa » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:22 pm

Fred wrote:why not something like this instead....

"Sorry guys my bad. I realize I got carried away by emotion and clearly I could have made the same point without being offensive. The truth is, we all appreciate the hard work the moderators put in on this website and we are happy to have access to this great resource."


nature of man fred. the forum is as thankless as what you got for building the wave or all the development you do in welsford. or all the work i and the exec put into the club and climbing in the province. which is to say i should have known better?

the thing that bothers me most about all this is that what i view as offensive content was posted in video format but my written post was what was in the wrong. admittedly i am in the minority, at least among those who are posting, that think the video was distasteful (uhhh) but that shouldnt be the basis for content moderation. im saying i think that flower was sick but you found it funny making my post the one that was out of hand. it is me that has to be non-offensive in my response and in my younger days i may have taken the time to write an essay on what was wrong with that video. nowadays i know the amount of effort it takes to change people and im just not interested in spending that energy, yet its hard to just let things slip. oh the inner turmoil...
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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby Fred » Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:46 pm

Mark:

I respect your last post and for that reason I will remove the thread linking to the video. Although the material was not offensive to me we should have been more sensitive to others' views as well. FYI. Next time just post up that the video is distastefull and hopefully our mod group will respond to remove it. Saddly we moderated the person who got offended and flammed instead of perhaps moderating the original offensive material.

As Adam said, there is no clear line in the sand.

We just try to do our best.

Peace

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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby Adam » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:01 pm

Fred wrote:As Adam said, there is no clear line in the sand.


i found it!!

Image
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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby ben smith » Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:13 pm

Fred whats the deal? It seemed to me that only one person (admittedly a rather vociferous one) found that video offensive.

I grew up hunting squirrels to learn how to shoot and every single one was eaten- both for the taste and to nail the fact into my head that you never kill something for sport- necessity only and if you do kill something even by accident you recover the edible parts and eat it to show respect for the dead animal. This highlights that the video was not some stupid " look what disgusting thing Ben will eat today" stunt. Like I said before, we tried numerous times to chase the squirrel away to save our lunches and packs (todds got chewed all to hell) and chris killed the squirrel as a last resort. Unfortunately in attempting to keep the video light hearted (and under 20 mins) that story got lost.

I still have a hard time finding todds video offensive (a sentiment which seems to be shared by all but one disgruntled "Bad vegatarian" (what does that even mean? you feel bad after eating meat? you can't quite figure out the nuances of not eating meat? I don't get it...).

Is it right that a video that todd spent a fair amount of time and energy shooting and editing be censored because someone is a sucker for big watery squirrel eyes?

I think not

ps. Nihoa, now that I've figured out who you are, I must say you hid this boiling hatred for me pretty well last time I came up to fredricton
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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby Fred » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:12 pm

Ben:

if killing and eating a squirel was as natural as eating a granola bar then there would have been no reason to document the event. no? I don't think there is any question that the video was intended for entertainment value, not a documentary on hunting wildlife for survival as you casualy explained. I could be wrong though.

Our goal is to remove offensive material. If that means that only one person got offended it doesn't matter. It's offensive to someone and that alone is worth respecting.

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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby Nihoa » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:14 pm

ben smith wrote:I grew up hunting squirrels to learn how to shoot and every single one was eaten- both for the taste and to nail the fact into my head that you never kill something for sport- necessity only and if you do kill something even by accident you recover the edible parts and eat it to show respect for the dead animal. This highlights that the video was not some stupid " look what disgusting thing Ben will eat today" stunt. Like I said before, we tried numerous times to chase the squirrel away to save our lunches and packs (todds got chewed all to hell) and chris killed the squirrel as a last resort. Unfortunately in attempting to keep the video light hearted (and under 20 mins) that story got lost.


your last point is, in my opinion, everything that was wrong with the video. it comes across as frat humour, something zany at the expense of the squirrel. i work in bird colonies and there are plenty of times that i have had to euthanise animals that i mortally injured unintentionally. if i were to post a video of me cutting the head off a bird without the explanation that 1) it was necessary and 2) having to do so was extremely hard on me, how would you interpret the video? it doesnt help that in your video there is clearly a lot of laughing going on as well. i dont think its a stretch for someone to question whats going on there and i also question your complicity with the video when it leaves out any mention of the respect for the animal you tell us you have.

ben smith wrote:I still have a hard time finding todds video offensive (a sentiment which seems to be shared by all but one disgruntled "Bad vegatarian" (what does that even mean? you feel bad after eating meat? you can't quite figure out the nuances of not eating meat? I don't get it...).


it means i do my best to avoid meat but nobody is perfect. sometimes i eat meat to get my energy up, sometimes i have little choice and sometimes its a guilty pleasure. there isnt anything wrong with eating meat other than the mode of production and i try not to support factory produced animal products. regardless, consuming meat isnt what i took issue with.

ben smith wrote:Is it right that a video that todd spent a fair amount of time and energy shooting and editing be censored because someone is a sucker for big watery squirrel eyes?

I think not


i didnt ask fred to remove the video so youll have to bring that up with him. and i hope by now its clear that i dont care if you eat squirrels. it does bother me to see videos pop up on the forum of people eating squirrels and laughing about it. i realise that i see these things quite different from everyone else. we strip rock of lichens, moss, and cliff inhabiting plants, clear landings and belay stations of trees, eat the local fauna, and then argue about the unsightliness of sport bolts and how the take away from the pristine experience of a route. wtf!?! i cant wrap my head around this. i understand these debates in the end arent environmental but thats where im coming from. bottom line, the video lacked your claim of respect for the animal.

ben smith wrote:ps. Nihoa, now that I've figured out who you are, I must say you hid this boiling hatred for me pretty well last time I came up to fredricton


i made a reply in the other thread which must have been deleted before you read it. there i let you know who i was and where i was coming from. there is no boiling hatred and when i said this sort of thing can be expected of you i meant you arent shy of public quirkiness (gnawing raw potatoes and the like). now, with a cooler head and your explanation behind the events, i recognise it as an unfair dig.
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Re: Split from: New Video, a must see!!!

Postby *Chris* » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:39 pm

Nihoa wrote: ... we strip rock of lichens, moss, and cliff inhabiting plants, clear landings and belay stations of trees, eat the local fauna, and then argue about the unsightliness of sport bolts and how the take away from the pristine experience of a route. wtf!?! i cant wrap my head around this.
Completely agree with you here... very few climbers who claim to practice 'leave no trace' ethics actually do so. If we all did, however, climbing would largely suck.

I gotta say that I'm surprised that this topic is still going. Let's just agree that eating meat, and moderating web forums, are things that will always please most, but not all people. If you guys want to debate animal rights there are plenty of other sites for that. I've been down that road though... and 100% of the time... it leads to nowhere.
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